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	<title>Comments on: Over The River commentary by Geo. R. Turner</title>
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	<description>Community news, blogs, info, videos and events for Salida, Colorado.</description>
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		<title>By: Jeffery Martin</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3022</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeffery Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 01:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3022</guid>
		<description>While there have been a great many excellent arguments levied against OTR here, I think one is obviously absent. 

No one would argue that the Arkansas River corridor is a fully wild and natural environment. However, it does still offer a great many natural benefits and vistas. I have never seen anything made by man that has improved on the art of nature. In fact, the very premise that man could accomplish such a thing rings loudly of egotism and arrogance. 

OTR proposes to hang laundry over the river and call it art. To my eye, it will only serve to obstruct the view of the art that is already there. Given the negative impacts on the environment, infrastructure, and transportation--and the questionable monetary ROI--how is this a good bargain for the community? 

&quot;Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it, and man can only mar it.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While there have been a great many excellent arguments levied against OTR here, I think one is obviously absent. </p>
<p>No one would argue that the Arkansas River corridor is a fully wild and natural environment. However, it does still offer a great many natural benefits and vistas. I have never seen anything made by man that has improved on the art of nature. In fact, the very premise that man could accomplish such a thing rings loudly of egotism and arrogance. </p>
<p>OTR proposes to hang laundry over the river and call it art. To my eye, it will only serve to obstruct the view of the art that is already there. Given the negative impacts on the environment, infrastructure, and transportation&#8211;and the questionable monetary ROI&#8211;how is this a good bargain for the community? </p>
<p>&#8220;Leave it as it is. The ages have been at work on it, and man can only mar it.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Minor</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3021</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Minor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Feb 2010 00:53:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3021</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d say it becomes a much more difficult decision--the absence of &quot;great impact&quot; postition is nice because it allows one to just examine the cultural merits.  To accept &quot;great impact&quot; suddenly raises a whole other question (or set of questions): relative to what?  Relative to the hazmat spills (3) on Hwy 50 that have kept me out of Salida for hours (even overnite) in the past two years?  We obviously hold that risk/impact to be acceptable, as I am not aware of any ban on propane trucks on the hiway to date.   Or the uranium ore truck that tipped and dumped its load right over the path I take several times a week to walk to the Swissvale swimming hole with my children?  I heard not one peep about banning uranium traffic, so that must be acceptable as well.  

To be certain, for arguments sake, if the risk was extreme, then the cultural/creative value would be trumped.  But I&#039;m certainly of the opinion that bolt holes in already blasted rock, next to a roaring highway, and next to a man-made rubble hill holding rusting train tracks are not exactly an extreme impact.  But we employ professionals (BLM, DOW, CDOT etc.) to  ascertain the impact, and should abide by their decisions as to the severity of the impact.   I think there are more than a few who are arguing this matter &quot;for arguments sake&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d say it becomes a much more difficult decision&#8211;the absence of &#8220;great impact&#8221; postition is nice because it allows one to just examine the cultural merits.  To accept &#8220;great impact&#8221; suddenly raises a whole other question (or set of questions): relative to what?  Relative to the hazmat spills (3) on Hwy 50 that have kept me out of Salida for hours (even overnite) in the past two years?  We obviously hold that risk/impact to be acceptable, as I am not aware of any ban on propane trucks on the hiway to date.   Or the uranium ore truck that tipped and dumped its load right over the path I take several times a week to walk to the Swissvale swimming hole with my children?  I heard not one peep about banning uranium traffic, so that must be acceptable as well.  </p>
<p>To be certain, for arguments sake, if the risk was extreme, then the cultural/creative value would be trumped.  But I&#8217;m certainly of the opinion that bolt holes in already blasted rock, next to a roaring highway, and next to a man-made rubble hill holding rusting train tracks are not exactly an extreme impact.  But we employ professionals (BLM, DOW, CDOT etc.) to  ascertain the impact, and should abide by their decisions as to the severity of the impact.   I think there are more than a few who are arguing this matter &#8220;for arguments sake&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Goldstock</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3019</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Goldstock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:27:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3019</guid>
		<description>Mark - Can we pretend for arguments sake that the impact upon the environment is great.  Then what would you say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark &#8211; Can we pretend for arguments sake that the impact upon the environment is great.  Then what would you say?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Minor</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3018</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Minor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 16:01:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3018</guid>
		<description>Christo, with an &quot;h&quot;.  My bad.  Must have been thinking of the mountain range, and the Blood of Cristo....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Christo, with an &#8220;h&#8221;.  My bad.  Must have been thinking of the mountain range, and the Blood of Cristo&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Minor</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3017</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Minor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 15:46:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3017</guid>
		<description>Ellen Bauder writes:
&quot;It is interesting that the most ardent supporters of this project are either paid to promote it (chambers of commerce, travel bureaus, etc.) or stand to personally benefit monetarily.&quot;

No, no, no, no, and furthermore, no!   I am a fervent supporter of this work, AND live in the canyon.  I don&#039;t stand to make one lousy cent off of it, and will gladly deal with any logistical snafus that come up (like we don&#039;t have that already on Hwy 50 through the canyon on a monthly basis).

To boot, I can&#039;t stand Cristo&#039;s art. Let me repeat that.  I think Cristo&#039;s art is stupid.   I make my living in the art field, and have done so (working for art museums) for the past 24 years now.  I&#039;ve been around a bit of it, you could say.  I find his art boorish, self-absorbed, and thoroughly un-inventive at this point.  But what is far more important is that the spirit of creativity, and openness to creative pursuits be protected at all costs.  If the man will foot the bill, and if the impact is not great (obviously the jury is out on that, but let&#039;s just pretend for argument that its not great)--then we do ourselves a gigantic disservice to prohibit this art.  What I think of it is irrelevant.  What matters is our openness to new ideas, differing points of views, differing creative approaches.  That enriches us as a people.  Precluding it on knee-jerk reactions diminishes us.  That&#039;s the crux of this issue for me, one that Cristo obviously has put out there and played to perfection.  His art is basically a referendum on our own willingness to embrace that which we&#039;re not necessarily comfortable with.  He&#039;s already &quot;won&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellen Bauder writes:<br />
&#8220;It is interesting that the most ardent supporters of this project are either paid to promote it (chambers of commerce, travel bureaus, etc.) or stand to personally benefit monetarily.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, no, no, no, and furthermore, no!   I am a fervent supporter of this work, AND live in the canyon.  I don&#8217;t stand to make one lousy cent off of it, and will gladly deal with any logistical snafus that come up (like we don&#8217;t have that already on Hwy 50 through the canyon on a monthly basis).</p>
<p>To boot, I can&#8217;t stand Cristo&#8217;s art. Let me repeat that.  I think Cristo&#8217;s art is stupid.   I make my living in the art field, and have done so (working for art museums) for the past 24 years now.  I&#8217;ve been around a bit of it, you could say.  I find his art boorish, self-absorbed, and thoroughly un-inventive at this point.  But what is far more important is that the spirit of creativity, and openness to creative pursuits be protected at all costs.  If the man will foot the bill, and if the impact is not great (obviously the jury is out on that, but let&#8217;s just pretend for argument that its not great)&#8211;then we do ourselves a gigantic disservice to prohibit this art.  What I think of it is irrelevant.  What matters is our openness to new ideas, differing points of views, differing creative approaches.  That enriches us as a people.  Precluding it on knee-jerk reactions diminishes us.  That&#8217;s the crux of this issue for me, one that Cristo obviously has put out there and played to perfection.  His art is basically a referendum on our own willingness to embrace that which we&#8217;re not necessarily comfortable with.  He&#8217;s already &#8220;won&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Thomas</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3016</link>
		<dc:creator>Joseph Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Feb 2010 01:51:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3016</guid>
		<description>And the debate continues......</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the debate continues&#8230;&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Donavan : Citizen</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3012</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Donavan : Citizen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Feb 2010 20:36:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3012</guid>
		<description>We sincerely appreciate your comment above, Ms. Bauder, when you say:

&quot;And the Salida Citizen needs to understand that printing a letter as though it were a sanctioned op ed without requesting information on possible conflicts of interests violates basic journalistic principles.&quot;

We are not a newspaper. Citizen Journalism is a unique animal. As has been demonstrated above; by allowing real time comments to live in perpetuity, truths and corrections will generally be presented by readers.

Thank you for writing.

On an unrelated note, to all of our readers, when writing please consider  that we started the Citizen to raise discourse, learn from each other and make our community better. If you find yourself arguing a point that an &quot;opposing&quot; writer has taken in a way that does not respect these ideals, please take a breath. 

We will not all agree on every issue. We challenge you all to write smart, thoughtful and open minded comments to help move a high quality discussion forward in a positive way.

In closing, if your comments cannot be kept brief, please consider sending us an Op-Ed piece.

-Thanks for your participation!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We sincerely appreciate your comment above, Ms. Bauder, when you say:</p>
<p>&#8220;And the Salida Citizen needs to understand that printing a letter as though it were a sanctioned op ed without requesting information on possible conflicts of interests violates basic journalistic principles.&#8221;</p>
<p>We are not a newspaper. Citizen Journalism is a unique animal. As has been demonstrated above; by allowing real time comments to live in perpetuity, truths and corrections will generally be presented by readers.</p>
<p>Thank you for writing.</p>
<p>On an unrelated note, to all of our readers, when writing please consider  that we started the Citizen to raise discourse, learn from each other and make our community better. If you find yourself arguing a point that an &#8220;opposing&#8221; writer has taken in a way that does not respect these ideals, please take a breath. </p>
<p>We will not all agree on every issue. We challenge you all to write smart, thoughtful and open minded comments to help move a high quality discussion forward in a positive way.</p>
<p>In closing, if your comments cannot be kept brief, please consider sending us an Op-Ed piece.</p>
<p>-Thanks for your participation!</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Newcomb</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3006</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Newcomb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 17:24:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3006</guid>
		<description>Ellen:

In all fairness to Salida Citizen, the column posted by Mr.Turner was listed as an opinion, therefore by default opening it to criticism, which you have done eloquently.

Regards,
Charles</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ellen:</p>
<p>In all fairness to Salida Citizen, the column posted by Mr.Turner was listed as an opinion, therefore by default opening it to criticism, which you have done eloquently.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Charles</p>
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		<title>By: Marshall</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3004</link>
		<dc:creator>Marshall</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 16:08:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3004</guid>
		<description>It has been pointed out to me that I posted an incorrect address for R.O.A.R. The correct address is below

ROAR 
662 Wapiti Trail
Canon City, CO 81212</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It has been pointed out to me that I posted an incorrect address for R.O.A.R. The correct address is below</p>
<p>ROAR<br />
662 Wapiti Trail<br />
Canon City, CO 81212</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen Bauder</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-3001</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen Bauder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Feb 2010 04:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-3001</guid>
		<description>If Mr. Turner wishes to be taken seriously, he needs to reveal that he is the former Executive Director of the Canon City Chamber of Commerce.  And the Salida Citizen needs to understand that printing a letter as though it were a sanctioned op ed without requesting information on possible conflicts of interests violates basic journalistic principles.

It is interesting that the most ardent supporters of this project are either paid to promote it (chambers of commerce, travel bureaus, etc.) or stand to personally benefit monetarily.

Last fall I attended a meeting of the BLM&#039;s RAC (Resource Advisory Council). As its name suggests, the group&#039;s focus is resources, primarily natural resources.  At least a half dozen OTR supporters spoke to the group, and nary a one was concerned about anything but how much they or the group they represented would make off the project.  Several of them admitted that there were serious environmental and safety issues (proper concerns of the RAC), then summarily dismissed them as unimportant in light of the financial gain they or their group might realize (not proper concerns of the RAC).  At least Mr. Turner is honest when he calls OTR an &quot;economic development project.&quot;  For whom, is the big question.  

Since one must assume that Mr. Turner is fully aware that there will be nearly 9000 anchors implanted in the river banks and that there is no plan to remove them, his statement that &quot;There will be no lingering, physical evidence on or near the river that it ever happened. &quot; is misleading at best.  The claim that the project will exist physically for only 2 weeks is patently false.  Will those 9000 anchors magically appear the day before the project is officially unveiled?  Of course not, as the OTR plan itself clearly outlines. They will be installed over a 2-yr period, disrupting traffic and impacting the lives of people who live in the canyon or at both ends.

To claim that there will be no cost to the state or its residents is also patently false.  The people who stand to gain care not a whit about the costs that others will bear during this 3-yr project, so they consider them inconsequential or non-existent.  There is no such thing as a free lunch, Mr. Turner, and you of all people should be fully aware of that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Mr. Turner wishes to be taken seriously, he needs to reveal that he is the former Executive Director of the Canon City Chamber of Commerce.  And the Salida Citizen needs to understand that printing a letter as though it were a sanctioned op ed without requesting information on possible conflicts of interests violates basic journalistic principles.</p>
<p>It is interesting that the most ardent supporters of this project are either paid to promote it (chambers of commerce, travel bureaus, etc.) or stand to personally benefit monetarily.</p>
<p>Last fall I attended a meeting of the BLM&#8217;s RAC (Resource Advisory Council). As its name suggests, the group&#8217;s focus is resources, primarily natural resources.  At least a half dozen OTR supporters spoke to the group, and nary a one was concerned about anything but how much they or the group they represented would make off the project.  Several of them admitted that there were serious environmental and safety issues (proper concerns of the RAC), then summarily dismissed them as unimportant in light of the financial gain they or their group might realize (not proper concerns of the RAC).  At least Mr. Turner is honest when he calls OTR an &#8220;economic development project.&#8221;  For whom, is the big question.  </p>
<p>Since one must assume that Mr. Turner is fully aware that there will be nearly 9000 anchors implanted in the river banks and that there is no plan to remove them, his statement that &#8220;There will be no lingering, physical evidence on or near the river that it ever happened. &#8221; is misleading at best.  The claim that the project will exist physically for only 2 weeks is patently false.  Will those 9000 anchors magically appear the day before the project is officially unveiled?  Of course not, as the OTR plan itself clearly outlines. They will be installed over a 2-yr period, disrupting traffic and impacting the lives of people who live in the canyon or at both ends.</p>
<p>To claim that there will be no cost to the state or its residents is also patently false.  The people who stand to gain care not a whit about the costs that others will bear during this 3-yr project, so they consider them inconsequential or non-existent.  There is no such thing as a free lunch, Mr. Turner, and you of all people should be fully aware of that.</p>
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		<title>By: Judy Goldstock</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-2997</link>
		<dc:creator>Judy Goldstock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:48:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-2997</guid>
		<description>That would work - little bit of crazy glue and we are all set.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That would work &#8211; little bit of crazy glue and we are all set.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles Newcomb</title>
		<link>http://salidacitizen.com/2010/02/over-the-river-commentary-by-geo-r-turner/comment-page-1/#comment-2996</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles Newcomb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Feb 2010 17:16:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://salidacitizen.com/?p=6807#comment-2996</guid>
		<description>Maybe a compromise that&#039;ll make everyone happy would be for Christo to wrap all those butt-ugly coal cars stored along the rail siding west of Parkdale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe a compromise that&#8217;ll make everyone happy would be for Christo to wrap all those butt-ugly coal cars stored along the rail siding west of Parkdale.</p>
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