Can we be respectful and agree to disagreement?

edited May 2015 in Life
   “And calling people "idiots" isn't really going to help your argument either.” -billtoo

Jay- YES there has been disrespectful conversation from the side of those angry at the ballot outcome. I went thru quickly and here are random quotes from the last thread. o ”When Melody Hallet said she did not support the Carlisle/Farney initiative, the audience roared with spontaneous laughter.”

o “Their thoughtless negativity has put a well run city on the brink of financial disaster. we all know the names of the few idiots who put us into this situation. Shame on them.”

o “Carlisle/Farney (and friends) bamboozled a lot of citizens in our fair community, and now we are left to pick up the pieces and figure out a solution.”

o “I find it interesting that you are so sure that the 3 council members never said "Vote for 2014-28." Were they coached?”

o “Billy, it was your arguments ... excuse me, good discourse, .. that got us in the mess.”

o “Melodee Hallett, Mike Bowers, Hal Brown who are continually confused about these items during City Council meetings.”

o “If you did not understand the difference between capital and operating and the related restrictions, then why did you not educate yourself and your supporters?”

On the other hand---the comments of Supps and billtoo and bcarlisle and jeff A were the most level- headed and respectful. Review. They appear to respect the people who voted for the initiative, and most of the others do not appear that way.

That is kind of the crux of a lot of this issue--- some people feel they are smarter and know better, and don’t care what many Salidans believe. Many in Salida just simply believe in small government. (Me!) Many don’t trust the government . Many don’t care about bike paths/lanes and whitewater parks, music festivals and development of Vanderveer, and don’t aspire to be like the suburbs, etc etc. The sentiments of many people must be considered whether you like it or not.

I appreciate when people are concerned about what is going on-- they are the reason the ballot was voted on and they are the reason it won. It is unfortunate that so many people on the other side consider this group ignorant or stupid. That is a very common belief among the whitecollar about the working class. It is very common among affluent democrats to believe republicans are dumb.

As Bcarlisle has pointed out--- several issues have been pulling this town apart. The biggest one is lack of respect for other viewpoints, IMO. There are ways to cooperate instead of being passive aggressive and working toward a zero sum outcome= winner take all. That to me is in truth what a lot of the loudest against Car- Farn are about--- it is winner take all. Also by the way, a very urban attitude and that is where a lot of power people in Salida come from. They aggressively (usually passively since they dislike accountability) push for what they want with little regard for others—who they are better-than in any case.

To me, Salida is quickly becoming a bunch of suburbanites and baby boomers looking for a mtn retreat. What made it a great town is working class people who believed in community over money, good conversation over competitiveness, simple government over a complicated bureaucracy. We are in trouble as a community because the newcomer culture is better at playing the game to win while the oldest families and rural people are just numb with all the noise of suburbia coming to Salida. And they are ridiculed because they don’t applaud the noise.

We should slow down, relax, respect eachother, and applaud the families who put up with all the hubbub year after year. Instead, I have heard over and over “if you don’t like it go somewhere else” from people who have been here a short time. IF you haven’t been here for at least 25 yrs, you’re still kinda new, OK? We should always K.I.S.S., and this means all of us.

Thanks

Mike

Comments

    There may be other comments on this topic on our Facebook page.

  • Thanks Mike. As happens sometimes, responses have surfaced on the Citizen Facebook thread instead of here on the site.

  • Very salient points... The one that hit home the most was:

    To me, Salida is quickly becoming a bunch of suburbanites and baby boomers looking for a mtn retreat. What made it a great town is working class people who believed in community over money, good conversation over competitiveness, simple government over a complicated bureaucracy. We are in trouble as a community because the newcomer culture is better at playing the game to win while the oldest families and rural people are just numb with all the noise of suburbia coming to Salida. And they are ridiculed because they don’t applaud the noise.

    Spot on, nail on the head, finger firmly on the pulse Mike.

    It's not just the unending desire to prostitute everything in the area in the name of the almighty dollar, destroying that which many of us came here for, its the "me first" attitude, a "my way or the highway" mentality, that's now bringing us such wonderful things as the re striping of US Hwy 50, and the Mumford shindig.

    Skillfully and forcefully rammed right down the communities throat by a skilled few. An ad in the Mountain Mail advertises a meeting at the steam plant for those that think Mumford is a mistake, come on in, we'll change your mind. Here, have some Kool Aid, it'll all be OK, we promise..

    Couple that with the fact that the skilled few ARE way better at playing the game, and you have a recipe for sudden, drastic, and uncontrolled change, replete with all of the unintended consequences.

    Yes, the answer in part is to motivate the older and rural folks to get out and fight, however many, not having their finger on the pulse, or preferring not to be in the spotlight, sit at home and reminisce about the way things used to be, before the newcomers came and changed Salida.. "Ya know Earl, I'm just about getting used to those 20 roundabouts on Hwy 50 between that 50 acre IKEA store and the new Wal Mart- truck stop- rv park - airport-hair-care - concert amphitheater and tire center"...

    I will end by saying, I find it quite disconcerting and very annoying that replies to comments posted here in a relatively benign environment, (zero trackers, zero malware) are only being posted to Facebook, a website that was created to be a haven for data miners and the willing victim of more security breaches than the US government.

    Why aren't duplicates to the Facebook posts made here as well ? Many of us that simply know better than to expose ourselves to the FB environment by creating an account simply to read the posts, would rather not.

    The Citizen was first (and best!), it should remain important instead of falling victim to Mark Zuckerberg's unending quest to best Bill Gates's wealth by selling data stolen from it's users.

  • Calmer heads may prevail, last nights Council Meeting, 5/5/2015, was much more peaceful and productive than the work session on 4/29 and the town hall meeting on 4/30. The Council seems committed to working through the budget issues in a constructive fashion. Some of the venting may be behind us. I hope the community will decide to get behind some of the important issues that unite us. Affordable housing would be a great one. A lot of Salidans felt that controversies was the biggest problem facing our community. I am working today, and I wish I had time to talk about some of the issues that came out in the recent Community Survey. The Citizens just seem to want practical solutions to problems. There has been some elevated discussion on the Citizen and I really want to thank Mike and Marshall for there efforts in this thread. Even the angry folks in some of the other threads used civil language. I hope we can have more conversations and less arguments. Billy Carlisle

  • 200 years ago, Abraham Lincoln worded his enigma very wisely: You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.

    Billy wrote: The Citizens just seem to want practical solutions to problems.

    Since I'm quoting people, this comes to mind..

    Don’t tell people how to do things, tell them what to do and let them surprise you with their results. George Smith Patton, Jr.

  • As one who was quoted in the beginning of this thread, I take exception to the characterization of some of my comments as disrespectful. When did asking a legitimate question become disrespectful? When did reporting actual events become disrespectful. Here is another quote from one of my posts.

    "Let us work together. Let us all remember that expressing an opposing opinion is not arguing. Let us all remember that voices not heard before have merit. ... Let us all remember just because we don't get what we want, doesn't make the decision wrong."

    I am concerned about and take exception to the divisive nature of part of the original post. I quote some pertinent sections: "Salida is quickly becoming a bunch of suburbanites and baby boomers looking for a mtn retreat. ...We are in trouble as a community because the newcomer culture is better at playing the game to win....We should slow down, relax, respect each other, and applaud the families who put up with all the hubbub year after year. Instead, I have heard over and over “if you don’t like it go somewhere else” from people who have been here a short time. IF you haven't been here for at least 25 yrs, you're still kinda new...."

    I am not nor ever have been a suburbanite or looking for a mountain retreat. I am young enough to be classified as a baby boomer. Because I worked hard, putting in 60+ hours a week and saved my money, I was able to retire early to the town of my dreams, small but active, full of opportunities for recreation and culture, most things within walking or biking distance, slow pace of life, very friendly people, and like the town in which I grew up (and where my Dad was born). I don't play games, except bridge. I am an individual who does not appreciate being placed in group.

    I have many friends and acquaintances in Salida on both sides of the 25 year division. I have never heard anyone say to me or others, “if you don’t like it go somewhere else.” The people I know are generally all inclusive. As others have said, we are in this together and must find solutions to whatever problems exist together. Personally, I don't care if your family settled our valley or if you moved here yesterday. I am interested in the quality of your character, your humor, and your willingness to work with and help all Salida Citizens. Louise

  • Sorry Louise if I didn't accurately represent you. (didn't name anyone) I just wanted to show there was quite a bit of negative sentiment/ disrespect toward those who voted for Car-Farn. I'm glad you were able to come to Salida-- it's just that we are facing a cultural divide that will not be solved by some people calling those who disagree w them ignorant. My comments are my opinion--- I'm not saying anyone is stupid. NOthing wrong with being urban, aggressive, suburban, or a baby boomer either. it's ok.

    I do think urban culture is more aggressive and plays harder. We do suddenly have a lot of baby boomers here, and lots of affluent suburbanites who might do better at respecting the community here before them. It is very sad to me that many lifetime Salidans have said they don't like it here anymore-- as a result of changes in town. It's culture clash. I hope we can make it better w patience and restraint.

    Marshall, thanks---I posted this on Facebook responding to comments there

    Laurie-- it does seem to be anti- small town to me, too, and they can’t seem to help themselves. You bring your culture with you when you move somewhere. Compromise is key in going forward, and the budget will get figured out. I bet if we gave them the data, for example, the kids at Crest academy could figure out how to find the money for operations that now will go to streets etc.. It is appalling (which is why I wrote) that many leaders are still using this as a way to divide, not come together. Yes, Car Farn won, big deal, move on. Don’t keep saying people didn’t understand it- Yes they did-- now do your job. They seem to be having a hard time cuz of competitiveness and zero sum thinking.

    Eric--Who will keep the lights on? This is a historically working class town being displaced by affluent “professionals” and retirees. They are buying the town cuz they can, but aren’t too interested in how the lights work. I have not once heard a newcomer feel any discomfort for making it harder for working class people to live here, rent here after having grown up here. I know many extremely nice people who are newer to Salida, but they are generally more urban and play to win, always have. There are more coming, and some will be community-minded.

    Bill, I’ve been in Salida close to ten years, and I probably won’t be here forever. I generally keep my strong opinions to myself because I’m new, but I don’t like people being treated disrespectfully. Change does happen, and some want it now, some want it to happen slowly. I don’t want to live in a suburban culture in the mtns--we have almost lost the rural working culture that built Salida. I have spent most of my life in rural culture, and I prefer it. We now have plenty of aggressive urban culture people pushing for what they want/ are used to, and this ballot vote suggests maybe we should slow down. I am, to many, a radical progressive, but that’s no good at other’s expense. I know for certain that many locals are upset, angry, feel marginalized/ unheard, so we should listen --instead of saying “deal with it”

    To me, govt is always trying to do too much – “growing” their business. First govt should make sure it is essential to the question, before taking over the solution, which historically they do a below average job in providing. The recent vote was largely a comment about limits on govt. IMO. I would not mind if occasionally the govt loses some jobs—every business struggles with that—why not govt?

    Thanks Laurie, Eric, Bill (on Facebook)

    Keep It Simple Salida!!

  • Mike,

    When we moved to Salida 11 years ago, having discovered the town 6 years earlier, it was to get away from the Denver metroplex which had become more and more impossible, as a place to live. When we moved to Denver in 1968 it was a friendly cowtown, now it is just another big city. Salida too is in evolution, and not always in the direction I would like or wish to support. As a simplistic example, there are more than one home owner associations in the county. Their purpose is to "protect property values" by maintaining enforced homogeneity. This gets rid of the eclectic funk of our town neighborhoods. And a further point, much of the apparent suburban/urban evolution going on seems to be forced in from outside of Salida proper. We will collectively see where the adventure takes us.

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